68 points by rbanffy 30 days ago | 16 comments
perlgeek 30 days ago
It sounds quiet inefficient to me. The energy differential comes from the different salt concentrations, so you have to move a lot of water to exploit a relatively low mass differential.

Mentions of efficiency are conspicuously absent from the article.

Another potential problem is marine ecology: pumping high-salt sea water to the top and releasing it en masse might lead to much larger fluctuations in salt concentration than what the ecosystem is used to.

That said, we need many different approaches to solve energy storage, and I hope to be wrong, and that they end up very successful.

perilunar 30 days ago
According to the article, both the reservoirs are sealed — the brine won't affect salinity in the surrounding water.
garbthetill 30 days ago
Yeah no mention of how it would effect marine ecology is bad, but the avg startup/mega-corp doenst care see how far people are trying to make deep sea mining legal, even with its obvious implications of destroying the sea
fakedang 29 days ago
Uh, did you get the words mixed up? Perhaps "the avg person doesn't care see how far startup/mega-corps are trying to make deep sea morning legal"?
boxed 30 days ago
There's a pretty short video in the article from the company itself that answers all that.
sixtyj 30 days ago
From the article:

[Company] has tested a small model of the reservoirs in wave tanks and off the coast of Reggio Calabria, Italy. It’s now deploying a pilot of the floating components in advance of a full demonstration plant. By 2026, it’s hoping to deploy several commercial projects at sites around the world.

At full size, the turbines would generate around 6 to 7 megawatts of electricity each, and there will be one for every 100 meters of pipe. Deeper sites would have more storage potential, and each commercial site would host multiple reservoirs. Sizable hopes to deliver energy storage for €20 per kilowatt-hour (about $23), about one-tenth what a grid-scale battery costs. —-

Testing in calm reservoire is different from potentially .wild offshore (ocean/sea)

What happens to 100-200 m long pipe in underwater waves when e.g. a hurricane or a storm comes?

closewith 30 days ago
> What happens to 100-200 m long pipe in underwater waves when e.g. a hurricane or a storm comes?

Nothing, to a rounding error. The effects of surface storms are only noticeable to ~2x wave amplitude.

There are plenty of other forces at work, especially tides, but storms will only affect the surface plant.

curiousObject 30 days ago
What happens to 100-200 m long pipe in underwater waves when e.g. a hurricane or a storm comes?

That’s an excellent question, but it is also similar to asking what will happen to wind turbines in a storm.

Maybe some will break. Maybe that’s an acceptable outcome. Probably they can be improved to reduce that risk

sixtyj 30 days ago
This platform (from video in the article) seems fragile compared to wind turbines or oil rigging platforms.

I know that underwater is calm even during storm but happens to the top part that is connected with pipe to bottom part?

vkou 30 days ago
Even in a storm, just a few meters below the surface (half the wavelength), the sea will be calm.

The bigger issue with this idea is that it's a megastructure sitting in the ocean, and salt water turns everything it touches into shit. Oh, and there's very little energy storage potential from just a salt gradient. You need to move way more water, to get less energy, but your container costs are fixed.

Land-based pumped hydro has no shortage of engineering problems (and risks if, you know, you get a dam collapse), but this has colossal capex costs.

alex_duf 30 days ago
It's anchored to the seafloor. Also surely we have the technology to hold a pipe in high sea, as this is what petrol platforms are doing.
sgt 30 days ago
Waves and weather can literally make concrete attached to rocky shores go flying... so one must not underestimate those forces.
anotheryou 30 days ago
platforms are on stilts, no? Quite different from floating. But yea, seems doable.
wasmitnetzen 30 days ago
There are floating platforms as well if the water is too deep for stilts.
anotheryou 30 days ago
ah! ty
Gabrys1 30 days ago
My understanding of this technology is that it's closed-circuit. No water is exchanged between the power plant and the ocean once filled with ocean water.
badestrand 30 days ago
To be honest, I find it a bit hard to understand even from the video. The top part doesn't look like it has any container at all.
anotheryou 30 days ago
right? really badly explained visually (no matter how visible the tanks are in reality)
Gabrys1 30 days ago
I must have missed the video apparently...
alex_duf 30 days ago
What I don't understand is how the top reservoir is floating when filled with brine. Are the small floaters enough to hold it up?

Otherwise I love the fact that's simple. Simplicity scales. It's also salt water, so assuming they're not putting anything else than NaCl, it can break and it's no big deal

_nalply 30 days ago
Have some air at the top of the top reservoir, assuming that the top reservoir is at most about 10 m deep in water (to avoid damage from storms). Or have the air in separate chambers fixed to the top reservoir.
anotheryou 30 days ago
Do I get this right?

- they concentrate salt water once to get "heavier than sea water" brine. Hope not chlorinated.

- it's then a closed system shuffling between bottom and top tank(s)

- everything floating is soft, so no strong forces unless a wave crashes on top

- advantage of ocean: "free standing" within height/depth margins, free water for initial fill

And really not visible in the video:

- the disk you see floating is a V shaped bladder with the storage in the V below surface and floatation sprinkled all around and segmented in to "cake wedges".

CMYKninja 30 days ago
The maintenance on this will be a real killer and by the time you build the robotic infrastructure to maintain it you’re not a power company anymore kindof how Amazon isn’t a bookseller.
theoreticalmal 30 days ago
Wait a second $23/kWh? I pay ~ $0.15/kWh for power at my residence the majority of the year. Is this a proof of concept number? What am I not understanding such that the power this produces is 4 orders of magnitude more expensive than what’s in place currently?
NooneAtAll3 30 days ago
"An average lithium battery costs around $139 per kWh in 2024" - random result from first page of googling in ddg

https://www.renogy.com/blogs/buyers-guide/how-much-does-a-li...

Maxion 30 days ago
I think they mean kWh of storage capacity – your talking about your energy costs which in a battery is the round-trip cost.

Battery capacity and energy consumption are measured in the same unit.

electroly 30 days ago
It's like saying gas at the pump costs you $3/gallon but building a storage facility costs $100/gallon. Yes, they're both $/gallon, but these aren't the same measurements--one is for a gallon of dispensed gasoline and one is for constructing storage with the physical capacity of a gallon. One is the price of gas and the other is the price of storage. You can store and then dispense many, many gallons over the lifetime of that one-gallon storage.
alex_duf 30 days ago
kWh of capacity, as compared to a kWh of capacity on a battery, over the lifetime of the product.

On each of these kWh you'll have (hopefully) multiple orders of magnitude of charge cycles

jnovacho 30 days ago
How exactly are they pushing the brine against the ~50BAR pressure differential?
joha4270 30 days ago
They're not dealing with a pressure differential. Or at least I don't think so.

I don't think the Journalist who wrote the article understood the technical details, but from digging a little at their website I think what's going on is they're moving heavy brine up and down, all of it equalized with local pressure.

Despite them describing it as pumped hydro, I think its better framed as a cousin of the "chunk of concrete suspended over a mine shaft" style gravity battery. Replace the mineshaft with water and the concrete with salt.

jnovacho 30 days ago
Oh, right thanks for clarification. They are indeed not pumping just any salt water, but much heavier brine (which they get who knows where).

So if there is any leak in the system, it will kill local wildlife right, like the brine pools under ice in Antarctica.

Filligree 30 days ago
If there’s a catastrophic collapse, sure.

If there’s a leak? I don’t see why it would; the brine will be immediately diluted.

edarchis 30 days ago
Relying on a salinity differential, even between salted and unsalted, seems like a terribly small amount of energy. There are projects to put large spheres at the feet of offshore windmills to pump water in and out. That has some pressure challenges but store a lot more.

The advantage I see for the salinity difference is that you can make them a lot larger than the pumped water ones. But is worth it, I'm skeptical.

world2vec 30 days ago
Maybe I'm missing something but won't submerged structures like these get all covered in barnacles in a few months?
marcyb5st 30 days ago
I don't think it is a problem for the outside shell, or maybe just a minor one. For the interior of the reservoirs, I guess the hyper salty water will kill everything that tries to grow there.
klntsky 30 days ago
> Sizable’s reservoirs could connect to any grid that’s near waters that are at least 500 meters (1,640 feet) deep.

How many big cities are there on earth with that depth available nearby?

OtherShrezzing 30 days ago
It depends on the definition of "near", but there's a sizeable population within ~40km, which is a reasonable distance for an offshore wind-farm.

Almost the entire Mediterranean is >500m depth within just a few km of the shore, and that's half a billion people. All of the eastern seaboard of the North+South American continent is available at 100km distance (another 100-200mn people). Most of west Africa, all of Australia, and almost all of the western flank of the Pacific.

Maybe a quarter of all people live within 40-50km of a 500m deep sea. Definitely a large TAM.

tiarafawn 30 days ago
Could also be interesting in case the idea of under water data centers ever returns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Natick

Or it could help offshore wind farms provide a more stable/predictable output.

worldsayshi 30 days ago
80% round-trip efficiency sounds very good. What am I missing?
Cthulhu_ 30 days ago
It's in the ocean, which corrodes and destroys All.
Filligree 30 days ago
I’ll stick with my freshwater fish tank. Fewer bobbit worms as well.
marcyb5st 30 days ago
That to store enough energy with just haline gradient the reservoirs need to be enormous
jillesvangurp 30 days ago
And under water construction is expensive. And durable construction in a marine environment is challenging (and makes things more expensive).

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea but they are factors that add to the overall cost. 20$/kwh is very attractive of course. But that's also a number that e.g. CATL is chasing with sodium ion batteries. And they are going to be making those by the gwh/year from next month.

algo_trader 30 days ago
Whatever happened to the BYD Sodium ESS [1]? By 2024 they were already taking orders and building a something-something giga-actory

Fingers crossed for both CATL and BYD

[1] https://www.energy-storage.news/byd-launches-sodium-ion-grid...

cyberax 30 days ago
So they have to build megastructures that withstand 10-20 bars of pressure changes? I don't get it otherwise.
Mistletoe 30 days ago
Is the salt NaCl?
foota 30 days ago
This seems like it could mess up local weather by bringing up water of different temperatures if deployed at scale (and if not at scale, what's the point?).
robertlagrant 30 days ago
> if deployed at scale (and if not at scale, what's the point?).

The "at scale"s might be very different between "what would be enough to affect local weather" and "what would store all the excess electricity generated in non-peak hours".

pandemic_region 30 days ago
Whatever this is, leave the ocean alone unless this is beneficial to its inhabitants.
alias_neo 30 days ago
Should we not do the same on land too, since it's significantly more scarce than ocean?
the_gipsy 30 days ago
This seems relatively non-invasive. It seems like the thing is closed-circuit, so there isn't even a brine / freshwater problem.