117 points by spchampion2 1 day ago | 8 comments
AIPedant 6 hours ago
I think “15 times further from the Sun than Pluto” is more meaningful for most readers than “700 times further from the Sun than Earth.” If it exists, it’s way way way out there.
NikkiA 2 hours ago
I dunno, '700 AU' gelled for me instantly, '15 times the distance to pluto' doesn't even make sense given pluto's orbit isn't anywhere near circular.
doubletwoyou 1 hour ago
I don’t think the vast majority of people will have a good sense of how far away the standard gas giants and pluto are from the sun in terms of AU.
rainsford 1 hour ago
It's sort of amazing to me that the Sun can capture objects that far away. Like obviously even at that distance the Sun would be by far the closest massive thing, but it's hard to comprehend the effects of gravity being strong enough at that distance. From "Planet 9" the Sun probably wouldn't significantly stand out from all the other stars in the sky, yet you'd be orbiting it.
1970-01-01 5 hours ago
Yes, also being 10x the mass of Earth that far out hints that it may be an interstellar object captured by the Sun.
water-data-dude 2 hours ago
I wanted to get a sense of what that MEANS relative to the rest of the gas giants. Apparently it’d be roughly the size of Uranus or Neptune.

I guess I’d always put all the gas giants in the same “very, unimaginably big” bucket. I knew Jupiter was the biggest, then Saturn, but I didn’t realize just HOW big they were compared to the rest. At the risk of stating the very, very obvious, Jupiter is huge!!!

Masses of gas giants are: Jupiter, 317.8 earth mass; Saturn, 95.2 earth mass; Neptune, 17.1 earth mass; Uranus, 14.5 earth mass

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_mass#Unit_of_mass_in_a...

nonethewiser 5 hours ago
Forgive my ignorance but how is that different than the rest of the planets?
tliltocatl 4 hours ago
The rest of the planets are theorized to have condensed from the protoplanetary disk that formed the same molecular cloud the Sun did. I. e. they have formed at approximately same time as the sun and from same material, sans gravitational separation.
swayvil 4 hours ago
Ah, so a captured body would be quite different and alien. Really old too. Like, first generation of stars.
geuis 2 hours ago
Would likely be older than the solar system itself. Probably not first gen star old, but likely would have formed before the sun did. Don't know how different it would be though. Would have formed out of maybe different ratios of elements than what was in the molecular cloud we formed from, but otherwise a large body like this would have undergone similar geological processes as our own planets.
s1artibartfast 4 hours ago
Not at all implied. It could be boring and younger too.

10x earth masses usually implies a gas giant.

3 hours ago
libraryofbabel 4 hours ago
The other planets formed from material in the same nebula (cloud of gas and dust) that collapsed to form the sun. The idea here is this planet would have been moving through the interstellar medium and just happened to pass close enough to the sun’s gravity well to get captured in a (very distant) orbit.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 4 hours ago
Capture would be like a reverse gravitational slingshot? This planet happened to meet the sun at an angle where it lost enough energy to fall into orbit instead of slinging back out like those comets that come around on long cycles?
marcosdumay 4 hours ago
AFAIK, it could be in a 2 bodies slingshot, multi-body interaction with some other stuff on the Oort cloud, or tidal interaction (what could happen way more easily with a nebula).
noah_buddy 4 hours ago
A comet coming back on a long cycle is an orbit
tough 4 hours ago
gravitational capture
s1artibartfast 4 hours ago
You don't need to lose energy to enter orbit any more than you need to lose energy too roll a ball down a hill.
tliltocatl 3 hours ago
Not true. An obit is not an infinite "plain" with a finite "hill" on but rather a finite "valley". The ball will exit the valley on the other side unless it loses excess kinetic energy somewhere in the valley.
s1artibartfast 3 hours ago
Correct, but my point is you don't need to lose energy to enter orbit.

You don't need complex reverse slingshot interactions. You just need a low enough relative velocity to not shoot off the other side.

I would expect this to be the norm for capture, not some exotic phenomenon.

A ball doesn't need to lose energy to be captured in a valley either.

You just apply a radial force to turn a line into a circle.

Anything that approaches the sun slower than escape velocity will be captured.

tliltocatl 1 hour ago
Anything that approaches the sun will do so with faster than escape velocity because the gravitational potential energy gets converted into kinetic during the approach. Newtonian mechanics is time-reversible - just like it's impossible for an object in orbit to spontaneously escape without gaining energy from somewhere first, it's impossible to enter orbit without losing energy to another body.
ars 1 hour ago
That is not true. If it approaches with less than escape velocity it will gain all the velocity necessary to escape in the process of approaching the Sun.

You could think of it as speeding up as it falls toward the sun, it then slows down by the exact same amount as it leaves the Sun.

In order to stay near the sun it needs to lose some of that speed, and given that momentum is conserved, the only possible way is to either hit the Sun or send that momentum to a third object.

dotancohen 2 hours ago
To all other readers: this is wrong.
4 hours ago
ck2 5 hours ago
There's an episode on "Space & Beyond" where they show all the planets in scale to the realworld on an actual football field.

Then to show Planet 9 distance they have to get in a car and drive a few miles.

That worked for me.

7373737373 5 hours ago
My favorite: Cody'sLab's "How far away are the nearest stars": https://youtube.com/watch?v=dCSIXLIzhzk Also gives an intuition for how incredibly bright stars shine
WillAdams 3 hours ago
Yeah, when the solar system was introduced to my class in grade school, we had an outdoor excursion where the teacher brought out a golfball and place it at one end, then brought out various tiny things (noting scale was very approximate) and paced off each to show the relative distances.
Nevermark 1 hour ago
I have a set of twelve books by an artist, titled "Astronomical" (one book for each letter). The first page shows the sun, then the rest of the books are almost all simply black pages, but with the planets and asteroid belt entities shown with accurate distance and size scale.

It communicates the scales really well, while only taking up a little over a foot of bookshelf space when not being "navigated". I have two heavy metallic retro looking rocket bookends for it.

oxidant 4 hours ago
I think Bill Nye has something similar, too.
randomtoast 7 hours ago
I find one theory regarding Planet 9 especially interesting, and that is that it could be a primordial black hole with a Schwarzschild radius on the order of just a few centimeters. So basically, just a golf ball-sized black hole. This would explain why we can see the gravitational effects on the other objects as described in many papers, and it would also explain at the same time why we have no direct observation of this object, because it's simply too tiny and black.
Projectiboga 3 hours ago
If it were earth mass it would be ~grapefruit size. This estimate puts object nine at 9 earth mass so maybe vollyball size or melon size? https://www.astronomy.com/science/is-planet-nine-a-black-hol...
Qem 27 minutes ago
If it were a blackhole it wouldn't show up in IRAS and AKARI infrared maps.
tlogan 1 hour ago
If I’m remembering right, compressing all of Earth’s mass would give a Schwarzschild radius of roughly 9 mm. I think Uranus (15x heavier than earth) would be like basketball.

Is my calculation correct?

api 6 hours ago
I really hope this is true, because it would mean there is a black hole close enough it could be examined and studied. This might allow us to test physics ideas that can’t be tested any other way, and maybe even to “finish” physics.

It could also allow gravity and Oberth effect acceleration of small probes to meaningful fractions of the speed of light for interstellar flyby missions. Imagine the Oberth effect boost from thrusting in such a deep gravity well.

zveyaeyv3sfye 3 hours ago
Not sure I want a black hole in my backyard ;-)

For all it's worth, there's no need to go black hole to explain the lack of visual observation. Objects that far from a star reflect very little if any light and would appear black to a black background.

margalabargala 2 hours ago
Black holes are no more "dangerous" than other objects of equal mass.

If a black hole with a mass of, say, Ceres hit the Earth, it would not be particularly worse than if Ceres hit the Earth.

magicalist 1 hour ago
> If a black hole with a mass of, say, Ceres hit the Earth, it would not be particularly worse than if Ceres hit the Earth.

This equivalency is true for many aspects of orbital mechanics (depending on setup giving sufficient distance), but I don't believe that's true at all for a collision. Someone with more knowledge correct me, but a black hole with the mass of Ceres would be very tiny but also emitting a ton of radiation. The collision would be very different.

devoutsalsa 2 hours ago
I’d love see a mini-Ceres about this streaming on Nebula.
TheOtherHobbes 6 hours ago
I really hope it isn't true because if there's one out there, there will be others, and I'd rather not meet one in person.

We don't have enough data to see whether there are unexpected instabilities in detected planetary systems. But it would be an interesting project to look for those.

shiandow 4 hours ago
Running into a rogue black hole must be far less likely than an extinction level impact with a relstively boring big rock.
api 5 hours ago
They're not dangerous unless you get too close. A black hole is not a cosmic vacuum cleaner.

If the Moon were suddenly transformed into a tiny black hole with the same mass, it would continue to orbit the Earth at the same distance. Ocean tides due to its gravity would continue normally. There would not be much effect except that it would no longer be visible with the naked eye and would no longer reflect the sun's light back to Earth. If you found it in a telescope, you might see gravitational lensing as it passed in front of the star field. Objects like probes or old spacecraft stages orbiting the Moon would continue to do so.

The only danger would be that if things fell into it I suppose you might get dangerous X-ray and gamma ray emissions from its accretion disc that would be a problem at such a close range. That would not be an issue with a primordial black hole much further away.

If there were such an object we could send probes to orbit it and study it, and some experiments may involve firing objects or shooting lasers or beams of particles into it to attempt to learn about the quantum effects at the event horizon. This could be massive for physics, allowing us to access and observe conditions and energies not replicable here on Earth with any current technology.

BTW we don't have any hard evidence that primordial black holes exist, but many theories predict them. So far such predictions around black holes have a pretty good track record. If you made me bet, I would bet on them existing. They are a candidate for some or perhaps even all of dark matter, though even if that's not the case they might still exist. It's possible that the dark matter haloes we can spot with gravitational lensing are clouds of these things. ("Clouds" of course is a misnomer-- the distance between them would be many light years.)

If planet nine is a PBH it means that at some point one was captured by our solar system into a Kuiper Belt orbit. Even if planet nine isn't one, there still may be small asteroid mass PBHs in our solar system, so we still might find one. They would require extremely sensitive X-ray or gamma ray telescopes or highly accurate gravitational models of the solar system to detect.

nonethewiser 4 hours ago
That is very interesting and made me realize I did think of black holes as “sucking” things in. Which I see is not the right way to think about it.
api 4 hours ago
It’s an object with theoretical maximum density. That’s one way to think about it.

Another visualization: if you had an Earth mass black hole with a solid shell surrounding it at the same radius as the Earth’s surface is from its core, gravity atop that shell would be 1g. The actual black hole would be about the size of a marble.

If you got close to it you would of course be subject to insane gravity and be “spaghettified” etc. All the mass would be in that marble. But at a distance it would be the same.

Compared to that object the Earth is mostly empty space. Ordinary matter is not that dense.

Black holes are totally fascinating. They are in some ways the most extreme objects that can possibly exist. If we could study one we could learn a lot.

philipov 4 hours ago
That's Newton's Shell Theorem for you.
4 hours ago
kiba 4 hours ago
We could use the black hole to power our civilization due to how efficient it is for generating power.
ta1243 3 hours ago
No need for something that exotic. The Earth alone receives more energy from the sun every hour than mankind uses each year.
api 4 hours ago
Not at that distance but black hole starship drives are theoretically possible. Far, far beyond our capabilities but possible within known physics. This is like Kardashev type II civilization stuff.

Domesticating fusion would be much easier. That is within sight.

ednite 5 hours ago
Honestly, if there is a golf ball–sized black hole out there chilling in the outer solar system, I'm all in.

Let’s fire up a replica of TARS, load up ChatGPT inside (TARS-GPT, patent pending), and yeet it straight toward the Schwarzschild golf ball. It’ll narrate live.

Imagine the livestream:

“Approaching event horizon. Spaghettification at 3%. Mood: stretchy.”

“Entering gravitational lensing zone… wow, even my tokens are redshifting.”

Bonus: With the right timing and Oberth maneuver, TARS-GPT might sling itself into Alpha Centauri before we finish arguing whether Pluto’s a planet again.

Worst case: we lose a robot. Best case: we unlock quantum gravity and get a podcast from inside a black hole.

I'd call that a win.

ednite 1 hour ago
Not sure why the downvotes—if I came off wrong, my apologies. I genuinely meant it in a humoristic way. I'd honestly love to see a probe launched into a black hole.
ajross 5 hours ago
FWIW, the object in the linked article is visible, so while that's an interesting theory it's actually ruled out if this thing turns out to be a planet. The black hole would need to be Planet 10 I guess.
lazide 5 hours ago
At the distances described, available passive light flux is so low, it could be 100% painted with white titanium dioxide paint and we’d be lucky to ever see it. It doesn’t need to be a black hole to be effectively invisible.
perihelions 4 hours ago
Indeed, it's a doubly inverse-squared law: one 1/d^2 factor for how far it is from the sun, by how much the solar flux is reduced; and one 1/d^2 factor again for how it is from Earth-based observers. 1/d^4, a quartic law.

That's the idea behind this paper (and similar ones like it): since they're looking for the planet's intrinsic emissions, from its internal heat, it's only a single inverse-square law.

With d being ~20 times Neptune's distance and ~140 times Jupiter's, these really are large factors!

perihelions 6 hours ago
This cannot be evidence of Planet 9 (the Batygin and Brown hypothesis)—it's outright incompatible with it.

https://bsky.app/profile/plutokiller.com/post/3lnqm2ymbd22r

If those two spots are the same object, that object is on a high-inclination orbit; but the pattern the Planet 9 hypothesis explains is only compatible with a low-inclination object.

Qem 19 minutes ago
Perhaps searching for Planet 9 we went straight to Planet 10. There was another one and we happened to find it first. Or also it could be a nomadic planet undergoing a close encounter with the solar system.
rozab 1 hour ago
Isn't this exactly how Pluto was discovered? Due to an innacurate estimate of the mass of Neptune (not corrected until Voyager I think), people were hunting for a large planet to explain the discrepancy. After a bunch of searching they happened to find Pluto, but it was not the Planet X they were looking for. The mass estimates for Pluto were gradually downgraded from many Earth masses to 1/500, which is the true reason it was initially classified as a planet.
Qem 12 minutes ago
For a time pluto had good estimates for his small size, but poor constraints on his mass beyond this Neptune mass estimate. So I remember reading a short story were they interpreted the possible high density as signs of a stargate.
sph 5 hours ago
The guy killed Pluto and still he isn't done :(

Seriously though, is he one of the people responsible for Pluto's demotion to dwarf planet?

db48x 7 minutes ago
Nobody killed Pluto.

Back in the early 1800s children used to memorize the names of the 12 planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Ceres, Pallas, Juno, Vesta, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. But then in 1845 astronomers discovered Astraea, and now there were 13. In 1847 three more were discovered: Hebe, Iris, and Flora. Then Metis, Hygiea, Parthenope, and Victoria by 1850. The 100th asteroid was discovered in 1868, and the pace only got quicker from there. Somewhere along that line people started using the words “asteroid” and “asteroid belt” and schoolchildren were mercifully spared the pointless task of memorizing hundreds, and later many thousands, of names of asteroids.

The same thing happened to Pluto. Just as Ceres was the first discovered asteroid, Pluto was the first discovered TNO. There are now hundreds of named TNO and thousands more that are just numbered. Nobody should force schoolchildren to memorize them all. Just tell them that there are an unknown number of objects in the Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud and they’ll know as much as they need to know. Give them bonus points if they know the names Ceres and Pluto, and more if they know why these two were discovered first of all the objects in their class: they’re the biggest. Otherwise there’s nothing special about them.

ufo 3 hours ago
His team discovered Eris and many other trans-neptunian objects, which did fuel the discussion behind pluto's demotion: greatly increase the number of planets, or demote pluto? They're also behind the Planet 9 theory that's discussed in the article.
raverbashing 4 hours ago
Nah, if it is big, and at that distance, and follows an elliptical orbit then yes it will be "Planet 9^W 8"
K0balt 5 hours ago
I hope this turns out to be wrong. I’m still holding out for a primordial back hole Planet X. That would be soooo cool and unbelievably useful.
jsbisviewtiful 4 hours ago
Why useful? Considering how hard of a time astronomers are having to simply find it it’s hard to imagine it being easy to study.
bikenaga 1 day ago
codethief 5 hours ago
DiogenesKynikos 2 hours ago
They forgot to change the title from "Overleaf Example" in their LaTeX source file.
perihelions 2 hours ago
It's "hello, world!" planetary science with "hello, world!" tooling!
doublerabbit 2 hours ago
Can I move to Planet9? Anywhere is better than this planet.
Qem 9 minutes ago
With current spaceships you would die of old age long before arrival.
anthk 2 hours ago
Well, 9front guys now have a fancy release name.
metalman 11 hours ago
we already have a 9'th planet, but due to the greatest pedantic campain of all time, pluto got demoted. Though given the current situation, ha!, that could change.....perhaps the naming commity will get noticed, and be offered a chance to do a deal, and Make Pluto A Planet Again,(MPAPA)
gus_massa 6 hours ago
If you add Pluto, you must add also Eris and a few more, like 5 or more, and perhaps also Ceres.

Here is a nice graphic that excludes Ceres https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet#Population_of_d...

irrational 4 hours ago
I would add those to the list of official planets, yes. Don’t remove Pluto, add the rest.
ta1243 3 hours ago
So that makes Pluto the 10th planet an Neptune the 9th planet.
ryao 5 hours ago
We should add those planets to the official list too. Gauss considered Ceres to be a planet and I believe him over living astronomers.

The motivation for this dwarf planet nonsense was to try to keep the official planet list small so children could memorize them with ease, but that is absurd. We do not remove countries from the map to make it easier for children to learn geography and there are over 100 of them.

db48x 0 minutes ago
For a generation, schoolchildren everywhere memorized the names of the 12 planets: Mercury, Venus, Earth, Ceres, Pallas, Vesta, Juno, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

The list was stable at 12 for about 40 years, but started growing again in the middle of the century. By 1868 there were 100 named asteroids. Not a single one has people living on it, so making children memorize their names was seen as a waste of time. Teach them about the asteroid belt and then move on to more important things. Likewise with the TNO: teach them about the Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud and then move on to more important things. No need to make them memorize Pluto, Haumea, Makemake, Gonggong, Quaoar, Sedna, and Orcus, nor any of the hundreds of other named TNO.

nonethewiser 4 hours ago
I mean… there has to be more to it than that right? But im also open to being red pilled on pluto.
rini17 7 hours ago
The same happened to Ceres first. To be fair, Make Ceres A Planet Again!
juped 6 hours ago
Yes, Pluto is the tenth planet.

To discover Planet 9, simply open your ephemerides and look for "Neptune".

metalman 6 hours ago
Ya, I know but Ceres is going to get pushed into an intersection with Mars to generate an atmosphere and a hydrological cycle .......testing on fusion rocket drives is ongoing https://newatlas.com/space/pulsar-fusion-rocket-design-slash...
Qem 5 minutes ago
Hopefully the energy released would also remelt it and restart it's magnetic field, to avoid volatile loss again.
QuadmasterXLII 6 hours ago
I mean, if you’re pushing ceres around, teller and ulam already designed the ideal fusion rocket
echelon 6 hours ago
If planets are required to clear their orbits, what was Jupiter called while the solar system was forming? A dwarf planet? A proto planet? The entire time?

Was earth not a planet shortly before and after collision with Theia?

The naming pedantry seems ridiculous given that we have such a small sample size.

stouset 5 hours ago
Every single definition that segments a real world set of continuous objects into discrete buckets has surprising edge cases. This is basically inescapable.

To steal a quote: All definitions are wrong. Some are useful.

anton-c 5 hours ago
I find that to be the most weird one too. I don't know much about orbital mechanics but in the unlikely chance 2 bodies shared an orbit does that mean they aren't planets then? How close can two planets be before losing that designation? I share your ire.
chess_buster 7 hours ago
brookst 6 hours ago
This is especially important if it turnes out there is a black hole acting as an additional planet, since it justifies the “Planet X” name.
rollcat 6 hours ago
The definition is pretty arbitrary. It's more interesting, what can we learn by studying that object. Even the trivia, like tidal locking, it was one of my 10000 moments (https://xkcd.com/1053/).
6 hours ago