106 points by pabs3 7 hours ago | 6 comments
esafak 5 hours ago
This would have been great 10-20 years ago, or even at the coining of Unix pipes. By today's standards, however, the syntax feels clunky and dated. I'd like to see contemporary shells like nushell and elvish copy these ideas, with attribution of course, in a more modern way. That is the best way I can see to honor this stagnant project: https://github.com/dspinellis/dgsh
DSpinellis 4 hours ago
I went through two iterations before adopting the current syntax. Truth is neither me nor Doug McIlroy, the inventor of Unix pipes, who kindly and generously provided feedback during dgsh's development, had something better to propose.

What syntax would you propose?

esafak 3 hours ago
Greetings, Diomidis.

I would suggest a familiar notation like "[a, b] -> c" in a dedicated dag block:

  dag text_stats {
    tee -> [ split_words, count_chars ]

    # word-based frequencies
    split_words -> tee_words
    tee_words -> ngram2 -> save_digram
    tee_words -> ngram3 -> save_trigram
    tee_words -> ranked_frequency -> save_words

    # character-based frequencies
    count_chars -> add_percentage
    chars_to_lines -> ranked_frequency -> add_percentage -> save_chars
  }

  run text_stats < input.txt
https://www2.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/sw/dgsh/#text-properties

or

  dag commit_graph {
    git_log -> filter_recent -> sort -n -> [ uniq_committers, sort_by_email ]

    uniq_committers -> [ last_commit, first_commit, committer_positions ]
    [ last_commit, first_commit ] -> cat -> tr '\n' ' ' -> days_between

    [ committer_positions, sort_by_email ] -> join_by_email -> sort -k2n -> [ make_bitmap_header, plot_per_day ]

    [ uniq_committers, days_between ] -> emit_dims -> plot_per_day

    make_bitmap_header -> cat
    plot_per_day -> morphconv -> [ to_png_large, to_png_small ]
  }

  run commit_graph
https://www2.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/sw/dgsh/#committer-plot

The translations above are computer-assisted and may contain mistakes, but you get the idea.

shanemhansen 2 hours ago
The closeness of this syntax to graphviz dot is very interesting.

having dgsh output a graphvis file in dry-run mode would be a neat feature.

DSpinellis 3 hours ago
Thank you for the suggestion. This would mean that you'd also then create some mapping from each name (like git_log) to its implementation, right?
esafak 3 hours ago
Yes, using shell functions:

  git_log() {
    git log --pretty=tformat:'%at %ae'
  }
Separating function definitions allows you to run, test, and re-use them.
DSpinellis 1 hour ago
And, more importantly, assign a name to a process, so that it can appear multiple times in the graph.
zokier 4 hours ago
Well, the project started 12 years ago (as sgsh), so that fits into your 10-20 years ago window :)
hnlmorg 5 hours ago
Murex has had this capability for years. (https://github.com/lmorg/murex)

I’m on my phone at the moment and cooking so cannot type any examples, but if I get time, I’ll throw together some comparisons later tonight

esafak 5 hours ago
I could not find any mention of DAGs or directed acyclic graphs in the documentation.
hnlmorg 4 hours ago
Yeah it’s not technically DAG since it uses iteration, but then dgsh will use iteration under the hood too.

However Murex does support CSP-style concurrency. So while there’s no syntax sugar for writing graphs, you can very easily create adhoc pipes and pass them around instead of using stdout / stderr.

So it wouldn’t actually take much to refine that with some DAG-friendly syntax.

In fact maybe that can be my next project…

DSpinellis 2 hours ago
I'm curious: what do you mean by "dgsh will use iteration under the hood too"? Dgsh does several things under the hood, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as iteration.
hnlmorg 2 hours ago
Yes you’re right. My apologies. I was glancing at the examples while cooking, specifically the git example (https://www2.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/sw/dgsh/#commit-stats) thinking that it was iterating over the lines output from git, but clearly that’s not even how bash would work. That will teach me for commenting without giving something my full attention first doh!

Looking properly at this, I can see no iteration is needed. Which actually makes the Murex implementation even easier because Murex already has tee pipes just like dgsh. It’s just not (yet) particularly well documented.

DSpinellis 2 hours ago
Admiring your multi-tasking!
em-bee 2 hours ago
would you be able to share or point to some examples? i am curious.
o11c 4 hours ago
Frankly, I find that anything more than some preparatory `exec {my_fd}< <(commands ...)` is an unmaintainable mess, so bash is plenty for any program that should be implemented in bash.
DSpinellis 3 hours ago
Manually playing around with fds is definitely unmaintainable. My hope is that a clean syntax can help create maintainable complex pipelines.
dang 2 hours ago
Related. Others?

Dgsh – Directed Graph Shell - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21700014 - Dec 2019 (11 comments)

Dgsh – Directed graph shell - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13352659 - Jan 2017 (51 comments)

jimbokun 6 hours ago
This is very interesting, but I'm wondering how it compares to just using a dynamic language like Python or Ruby for the same tasks. Curious how the line count to express the same tasks would come out.
everforward 4 hours ago
From a glance, it looks like very similar tradeoffs vs bash. Much harder to read in a medium-large application, but much more ergonomic IO and process control.

I.e. much faster to use dgsh for a basic processing DAG, much more painful to use dgsh for a large ETL pipeline.

Python with something like Prefect isn't something you'd use a REPL to bang out a one-off on, but it'd be more maintainable. dgsh would let you use a REPL to bang out a quick and dirty DAG.

DSpinellis 4 hours ago
I've found creating pipelines with Python to be messy and intuitive. Other than creating a DSL to express them I can't see how DAGs can be expressed naturally with Python's syntax.

Even creating tools in Python that can be connected together in a Unix shell pipeline isn't trivial. By default if a downstream program stops processing Python's output you get an unsightly broken pipe exception, so you need to execute signal.signal(signal.SIGPIPE, signal.SIG_DFL) to avoid this.

sunshine-o 5 hours ago
I respect Python but the upgrade to Python 3 showed that data processing workloads that can be handled by standard Unix tooling should stay there.

The upgrade was a nightmare for so many organizations. It shouldn't be that way but it was.

PaulHoule 5 hours ago
There is a lot of stuff for Python which follows the "express computation as a dag" approach, especially Apache Airflow

https://airflow.apache.org/

croemer 4 hours ago
I was curious but the docs are a nightmare. I clicked through a couple of pages and couldn't see a single simple non-trivial example.
DSpinellis 4 hours ago
Apache Airflow solves a very different problem. Its DAGs are static dependencies between sequentially executed processing steps, whereas the DAGs of dgsh express live direct data flows.
PaulHoule 4 hours ago
Yeah, there are also the boxes and lines tools like

https://www.knime.com/

which have their own subculture. You could solve the same problems they do with pandas and scikit-learn but people who use those tools would never use pandas and scikit-learn and vice versa.

Circa 2015 I was thinking those tools all had the architectural flaw that they pass relational rows over the lines as opposed to JSON objects (or equivalent) which means you had to realize joins as highly complex graphs where things that seem like local concerns to me require a global structure and where what seems like a little change to management changes the whole graph in a big way.

I found the people who were buying up that sort of tools didn’t give a damn because they thought customers demanded the speed of columnar execution which our way couldn’t deliver.

I made a prototype that gave the right answers every time and then went to work for a place which had some luck selling their own version that didn’t always give the right answers because: they didn’t know what algebra it supported, didn’t believe something like that had an algebra, and didn’t properly tear the pipeline down at the end.

jpitz 1 hour ago
Do you mean to say that two non-dependant tasks in an Airflow DAG aren't able to concurrently execute? Thats not my experience. I'm also confused by the use of 'static' in this context.
DSpinellis 1 hour ago
That's the point: non-dependant tasks can run concurrently in Airflow. In sh/BAsh/dgsh dependant tasks can also run concurrently, as in tar cf - . | xz.
procaryote 4 hours ago
spawning shell commands and the equivalent of piping is surprisingly hard in python. It's almost easier to do in C

There are probably libraries that could help, but then you need to install dependencies which is sad in python for other reasons

croemer 4 hours ago
We use snakemake a lot in bioinformatics to take advantage of parallelism in workflows while staying close to Python: https://github.com/snakemake/snakemake

Others use nextflow but that requires learning Groovy and it's less intuitive.

byearthithatius 1 hour ago
Interesting. What are the benefits of thinking of data pipelines in terms of a DAG? Why cant it be cyclical with exit conditions?
DSpinellis 1 hour ago
A nicer syntax and a lower probability of deadlocks.
politician 4 hours ago
A solution to the One Billion Row Challenge (1brc.dev) written in dgsh would be a interesting as a benchmark.
DSpinellis 3 hours ago
Nice benchmark! This is a (not at all efficient) awk one-liner.

awk -F\; ' $2 > max[$1] { max[$1] = $2 } !($1 in min) || $2 < min[$1] { min[$1] = $2 } { sum[$1] += $2; count[$1]++} END { for (n in sum) printf("%s=%.1f/%.1f/%.1f, ", n, min[n], sum[n] / count[n], max[n])}'

Can't see how dgsh could be applied to it.

uncletaco 6 hours ago
Hello. In English this makes me think of the phrase “dog shit”. Not sure if that’s intentional or not.
pentaphobe 6 hours ago
Second English speaker here who didn't make that connection at all
nasretdinov 5 hours ago
English is my third language and I can confirm I didn't even think about this
rirze 5 hours ago
Same english is my fourth language and it didn't even appear to me
DSpinellis 4 hours ago
Author of dgsh here. This is definitely not what I had in mind.
lucideer 2 hours ago
Another English speaker data point here & I actually read dogshit before I read dgsh.
DonHopkins 5 hours ago
That's what I think when I hear "bash".
dotnetcarpenter 1 hour ago
That's literally the word for shit in Norwegian: bæsj https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Nb-b%C3%...
kbr2000 1 hour ago
batshit?
goldenCeasar 5 hours ago
Now I can't unconnect this, I hope OP was aware because now he wont forget too.
em-bee 3 hours ago
and no matter how much i try, i can't make the connection. best i can come up with is dogshell, and even that is a stretch. phew...