63 points by awkwardpotato 2 hours ago | 10 comments
rafram 1 hour ago
Clickbait from 404 Media? Surely not!

The part they kept out of the headline:

> for use in distributing the keys for accessing the military GPS signals

It’s common knowledge that the military has access to a separate, encrypted, higher-precision GPS signal. “Numbers station” implies that they’re distributing unrelated encrypted information, but they’re not; it’s not surprising that GPS signals would be used to deliver information related to GPS, even if only military receivers have any use for it!

05 1 minute ago
> has access to a separate, encrypted, higher-precision GPS signal.

That's not it, though. This is available on the consumer L1 band, and you can even read that info using a $5 Ublox receiver (UBX-RXM-SFRBX command).

causal 21 minutes ago
I don't think this qualifies as clickbait in the sense that the headline mismatches the contents. My experience with 404 Media is that they treat every article like they've just released the Pentagon Papers, so you just have to read with that in mind.
stackghost 31 minutes ago
>It’s common knowledge that the military has access to a separate, encrypted, higher-precision GPS signal.

The most militarily-valuable aspect of the military GPS signals is actually the anti-spoofing qualities, rather than the higher precision. Survey-grade GPS gear has been able to achieve centimetre-level precision from the regular civilian signals for several years now, using RF fuckery like tracking the phase angle and other techniques.

To be sure, you want the precision too. NATO countries have M982 Excalibur GPS-guided artillery rounds that are precise enough that you can select not just the building you want to hit but the specific window you want the round to enter.

But the primary benefit of the encrypted signal is that it provides cryptographic assurance that the signal is not spoofed and one can be confident that one's GPS-guided cruise missile or other munition is not being diverted off-course.

Nowadays the military GPS signal has moved from transmitting the legacy "P(Y) code", which is a Cold War-era design, to the "M code" which incorporates several decades' worth of lessons learned in terms of spoofing resistance, cryptographic authentication, etc. It's actually a really neat rabbit hole to climb down.

866-RON-0-FEZ 51 minutes ago
HN shadow-bans so many domains but continues to let slop like this through.
anigbrowl 18 minutes ago
The story links to the current issue of the Inside GNSS magazine but the article isn't available in the digital edition, apparently. It's in the print edition, readable at https://lsc-pagepro.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=...

The source data and analytical code (in Julia) is also available at https://lsc-pagepro.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?i=...

In my view people nitpicking the 404 media story are being ridiculous. Everyone in their audience knows GPS originated as a military system, indeed I think most of teh general public knows that. Bashing them for not mentioning this is just looking for something to be mad about.

zerobees 1 hour ago
"Numbers station" is a weird analogy, because the idea of a numbers station was to broadcast messages to undercover operatives in a way that can be received using unmodified (and therefore non-suspicious) household radio receivers.

Here, it appears to be a rekeying system for specialized military gear.

moritzwarhier 1 hour ago
I think it's simply because of using a public channel for encrypted communication.
ronsor 1 hour ago
Technically all RF communications are "public." You have to use encryption if you want security.
jjtheblunt 1 hour ago
Would point to point laser seem like it's RF and not readily snooped without detection?
wang_li 1 hour ago
Unless you are in a vacuum, a laser that can reach a useful distance can be observed due to atmospheric scattering.
866-RON-0-FEZ 48 minutes ago
Yeah GPS is not the people's airwaves it is operated by the US Space Force, I suggest you read up on your history.
moritzwarhier 17 minutes ago
OK, I have to further narrow down my statement then: a publicly readable medium (or one-way channel).

I didn't want to imply that regular people could simply inject data into what's emitted by GPS satellites.

Sorry if that wasn't clear, but I am aware that GPS is operated by the US military.

anigbrowl 49 minutes ago
“Every receiver in the world decodes Subframe 4, Page 17,” Murdoch said in his new article. [...] “Every GPS satellite is a numbers station,” he concluded.
tokai 1 hour ago
Yeah its not a number station at all.
Analemma_ 1 hour ago
I disagree? The point of a numbers station is that it broadcasts in the clear and anyone with a receiver can get it, but only people with the appropriate decryption key can make any use of it. Since it's broadcasting all the time, there's no need for steganography or covert transmission. That's exactly what a numbers station is.

Where the article loses me is the implication that this is somehow sinister or beyond the pale: it's just piggybacking on a global transmitter network that exists anyway, why not?

anigbrowl 46 minutes ago
This implication is purely in your head. The article and the scientist whose work it describes are just pointing out the identification of some data that's been transmitted across a public channel for years without anyne noticing.
thaumasiotes 47 minutes ago
> Since it's broadcasting all the time, there's no need for steganography or covert transmission.

Well, you could look at it that way, or you could say that the fact that it's broadcasting all the time is the steganography. That constant transmission of nonsense that nobody wants is what makes it fail to be suspicious when you send a message that somebody does want.

tokai 1 hour ago
Its all comes down to what we buy as the definition for a number station. For me a number station needs sends a message to be a number station, not a key.
robotresearcher 10 minutes ago
A data payload you didn't already know is a message. This message contains a key.
sgjohnson 1 hour ago
>For me a number station needs sends a message to be a number station, not a key.

We don't know that it's a key that's being sent. For all we know, it could be just random data. Obviously it's most likely not random data, but ciphertext. Either way, we have no idea what the message is.

sieabahlpark 37 minutes ago
[dead]
NelsonMinar 20 minutes ago
ck2 58 minutes ago
People are complaining about a clickbaity title but it's a fascinating article I am not sure most would read otherwise

What's interesting to me is how out of date US GPS system is compared to China's BeiDou

and while most US GPS receivers will use Russia's GLONOSS, China's BeiDou is blocked

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47849174

applicative 20 minutes ago
The going wisdom seems to be that the EU's Galileo is the most accurate system for civilian use. GPS has undergone frequent systematic update for almost a half century.
anigbrowl 51 minutes ago
Indeed. i have some GPS receiver modules and had wondered about this data, I had assumed it was imprecision in my device or something to do with a satellite moving around. I'll have to plug it in and go back for another look.
ChrisArchitect 47 minutes ago
7777777phil 1 hour ago
Slightly related the latest Veritasium Video: Something is jamming GPS over Europe.

https://youtu.be/tz23G_UXCGA

newtwentysix 1 hour ago
spwa4 1 hour ago
TLDW: Russia is jamming GPS and GNSS over Europe, purposefully, using a constellation of military satellites.

Theory is that Russia is constantly practicing to totally disrupt GPS and GNSS (and the Chinese system) across all of Europe.

floxy 51 minutes ago
Anyone have a good source to read up on the current state of the art for daytime celestial navigation? Maybe there isn't too much in the public domain, because things like GPS work so well. But I'd guess that since you can't easily artificially jam celestial navigation there would be military research on this. But I suppose clouds also limit the practicality as well.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-see-stars-...

eagerpace 1 hour ago
GPS was always a dual use system. This is very detailed and specific, but not interesting or surprising. Research has been study GPS signal data, found parts that are encrypted and he doesn’t understand. The end. Article seems only intended to generate an emotional response of “how dare they use GPS for war, man!”
sgjohnson 1 hour ago
> GPS was always a dual use system

It wasn't. It was going to be a military-only system, until KAL007 presented the obvious life-saving civilian case.

But yes, the title of this article might as well read "Satellite system developed for military use is being used for a military purpose."

eagerpace 1 hour ago
Even better, thanks for clarifying. It’s that kind of omission from the article that makes the rest of it hard to swallow. Even if it is technically correct. Which is sadly the case for most “journalism” these days.
golem14 1 hour ago
It’s not surprising, but I find it interesting.
jp42 1 hour ago
Meanwhile Starlink and Starshield: Hold my beer ;-)
josefritzishere 1 hour ago
best zero day exploit ever
gruez 1 hour ago
That's not what a 0day exploit is. It doesn't allow you to take over arbitrary GPS receivers, for instance.