Lift Challenge(darpa.mil)
32 points by mhb 12 hours ago | 12 comments
stratosgear 43 minutes ago
Hate that "warfighter" has entered our vocabulary. It's so kitsch...
sysreq_ 56 minutes ago
Been working this for a few months now. It’s not a crazy hard problem - but it does break the mold of distance and speed taking priority over capacity. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I can get into the pros/cons of all the various options and tuning knobs.
stevage 45 minutes ago
Yeah I'd be interested to hear more about what the options might be. Also curious why it is that DARPA thinks this is solvable, but no one has come close yet.
sysreq_ 27 minutes ago
The tunable influences on a rotor are primarily velocity (rotation speed) and surface area (radius). Conceptually it’s more similar to something like a human powered helicopter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroVelo_Atlas) than you might expect.
47 minutes ago
AndrewKemendo 48 minutes ago
Why do you find it ethically ok to continue to support the Department of Defense/War?
bob1029 9 hours ago
> Competitors must create an aircraft that is both lightweight and powerful – lifting at least 4x its weight while flying a 5-nautical-mile circuit course.

I'd make it 50NM. 5 is way too easy to bullshit with edge case engineering. Alternatively, set a minimum payload capacity of something like 100kg.

Legend2440 47 minutes ago
From the rules:

>110 pounds is the minimum payload weight to receive a qualifying score.

TeMPOraL 9 hours ago
Maybe "edge case engineering" is precisely what they're looking for? Get people to think about beating the rules with cheesy strategies, in hopes some of those could, with some cleverness, scale up and evolve into proper, broad-range solution - or at least become a key previously-missing component of one. But even if it can't, very narrow capabilities can still be useful too; military isn't beyond doing silly things if they offer enough tactical advantage (enough to offset extra burden on logistics, at least).
echoangle 55 minutes ago
How would you build a bullshit solution to move 2.5 pound around a 5 mile course (maneuvering) with a vehicle weight below 0.63 pound? I think if you solve that it’s not a bullshit solution but actually useful.
xnx 9 hours ago
Giant hot air balloon for lift + 4 rotors for steering? It wouldn't be fast, but it might work [in low wind conditions].
echoangle 1 hour ago
mhb 5 hours ago
Rules exclude that approach.
childintime 7 hours ago
CATL is working on 12000 Wh/kg air batteries, they will solve this problem, give them the prize.
10 hours ago
9 hours ago
uberex 53 minutes ago
Hydrogen-filled balloon wins
sysreq_ 41 minutes ago
The container required to hold 100 m^3 of compressed gas easily breaks your weight limit. Viable but not viable given the rules.
le-mark 46 minutes ago
Not allowed by the rules.
47 minutes ago
emsign 10 hours ago
The military is waking up to the need to adapt frontline logistics. With killrates of 90% for traditional trucks in the Ukraine war, without resupply missions by UAVs/UGVs holding positions is impossible now.
fc417fc802 10 hours ago
If the truck killrate is 90% what is it for troop transports? How do infantry get in and out of position?
blini-kot 9 hours ago
on foot (not 20km, usually its something like 3-5km AFAIK, 20km is the width of both sides strongpoints + no-mans-land between), or on some fast and agile one-way craft: motorcycles, buggies, e-bikes

the key idea is that you need something which can get you onto the enemy position either before hunter drones take off, or that a drone won't take out the whole complement, hence the uselessness of trucks

going on foot is not really due to the human wave nature of the attacks, but rather its like WW1 stosstruppen - they use whatever cover they can find and a squad of 4 on foot is much easier to go through bushes used as cover or when weather is not suitable for flying

of note here is that trucks were not really used for transport on the tactical level on the frontline, however lately (with drones from destinus) logistics runs in the rear have also become a problem even 100km+ deep - thats where the 90% killrate figure comes from

fc417fc802 6 hours ago
> however lately (with drones from destinus) logistics runs in the rear have also become a problem even 100km+ deep

That is quite interesting but in light of that my original question remains (except shifted 100 km back) what about troop transport? Are the combatants suffering a 90% killrate on all their large vehicles near the front or if not then what is special about logistics runs?

sneezychl 10 hours ago
> How do infantry get in and out of position?

They don't. Life expectancy of a Russian on the front line is hours. You just send in another wave.

fc417fc802 10 hours ago
If that were the case then there wouldn't be anyone there to receive the resupply to begin with.
lukan 9 hours ago
Also .. if that were the case russia would not find volunteers anymore, as the large majority of russian soldiers in Ukraine are there by free will, not because they were force drafted.

Edit, I forgot, most are not aware of that:

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-conscripts-war-combat...

KptMarchewa 9 hours ago
On foot, walking 20km+ to the position.
torginus 9 hours ago
Quads and dirt bikes afaik.
lukan 9 hours ago
Armored carriers if avaiable.
jauntywundrkind 11 hours ago
This is being announced to us or everyone right now? It's only around 10 weeks away: that seems surprisingly close. Have some folk already been made aware & have they had time to build for this DARPA Challenges? Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.
mhb 4 hours ago
I'm looking forward to the DARPA Challenge to create a service where you can sign up to be emailed about new challenges. This one started October, 2025. More details at https://www.darpa.mil/research/challenges/lift/competitors

"Phase 1 | Launch

October 2025

Special Notice publishing (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts.

Website launches (Oct. 23): DARPA publishes a Special Notice to broadly announce the Lift Challenge and solicit innovative design concepts.

Rules and prize announcement (Oct. 23): Detailed draft rules and prize structure are announced, specifying objective and subjective judging criteria."

fc417fc802 10 hours ago
> Generally I think of them as longer running challenges.

Given how outlandish the ratio requirement is compared to currently available products I expect this one will be recurring for at least a few years similar to what happened with the self driving challenge 20ish years ago.

ThunderBee 10 hours ago
this competition was announced October last year. IIRC registration ended sometime Q1 this year.
Schlagbohrer 10 hours ago
Darpa.mil got slashdotted? Wow. The folks who invented the internet...
brador 10 hours ago
Really just a battery challenge.

Possibly against laws of physics at energy density of 4x?

eichin 9 hours ago
I saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tohImHa4f5U (Hoarder Sam, "I'm building a drone for the DARPA lift challenge") the other day and it was a pretty good discussion of the "shape of the envelope" of the problem (and what kind of lift ratios actually exist in modern air vehicles), and particularly how they've set up the constraints to eliminate a bunch of "easy" approaches.

It also reminded me that for the first round of the self-driving grand challenge, none of the vehicles even completed the course :-) They really are trying to encourage "out of the box", or at least "not in the obvious box", designs...

echoangle 57 minutes ago
It doesn’t prescribe batteries as far as I can see. You can also build a gasoline powered vehicle which would get you roughly 6 times the energy density.
dang 1 hour ago
[stub for offtopicness]

[title fixed now]

zx8080 9 hours ago
Typo in title: "lift" not "life"

cc @dang

neonstatic 10 hours ago
You think your life is heavy, huh? You might want to check out this challenge...
konchunas 11 hours ago
It's Heavy Lift, not life
A_D_E_P_T 9 hours ago
Heavy life challenge: Biology usually discriminates against heavy isotopes. Can we reverse, redirect, or exploit that tendency? Find a way to get plants and bacteria to preferentially incorporate heavy atomic isotopes.

Use microbes, algae, duckweed, or plant-cell cultures to produce deuterated and 13C/15N-labeled complex biomolecules that are expensive or impractical to synthesize chemically.

Could be fun, honestly.

azalemeth 8 hours ago
I know you're joking, but changes in isotopes mildly affect reduced mass and hence enzyme kinetics. Maize and other C4 plants already preferentially enrich themselves with 13C [0-3] which occasionally buggers up metabolomic experiments. Famously, a few drugs use 2H rather than natural abundance H typically in order to exploit a kinetic isotopic effect and get a better Km in their binding pocket [4].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionation_of_carbon_isotop... [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7577891/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1734681/ [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C4_plants [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterated_drug#Examples

TeMPOraL 8 hours ago
Personally I don't see this as joking, I think this whole space is severely underfunded and could use some publicity and moonshot contests. I mean, think of it, the planet Earth is full of beautiful and diverse nanotechnology that can literally map-reduce complex behavior over individual molecules, and we do so little to use it for practical purposes. Even most advanced manufacturing methods we use are still simple things applied in bulk, counting matter by volume instead of as objects. There's lots of unexplored potential within reach, and here we actually know it can pan out, because we see these processes happening everywhere, all the time, all at once, all around us.
kreelman 11 hours ago
When life gets tough...

Contact DARPA for a lift !